Held here entire — 199 passages across 8 chapters, set down from the first word to the last.
- 0:00AFD's Platform and German ChallengesAlice Beadle introduces AFD's core principles and highlights Germany's current struggles.
- 23:24Germany's Energy Policy FailuresElon Musk and Alice Beadle discuss Germany's controversial nuclear power plant shutdown.
- 36:54Bureaucracy and High TaxesAFD aims to reduce Germany's excessive bureaucracy and high tax burden.
- 45:21Deterioration of German EducationAlice Beadle criticizes the decline in Germany's educational standards and the rise of 'woke' agendas.
- 50:06Unsustainable Immigration PoliciesAlice Beadle details Germany's immigration challenges, drawing parallels with the US situation.
- 1:04:16AFD, Media Bias, and Free SpeechAlice Beadle addresses negative media portrayals of AFD and emphasizes the importance of free speech.
- 1:15:03Debunking AFD's 'Far-Right' LabelAlice Beadle clarifies AFD's libertarian-conservative stance, distinguishing it from historical National Socialism.
- 1:23:28Ukraine War and US LeadershipElon Musk and Alice Beadle discuss the Ukraine conflict and the potential for a swift resolution under President Trump.
The Transcript
Speaker 1Welcome to the conversation with Alice Beadle, who is currently the leading candidate to run Germany, I think, most popular in the polls. Welcome, Alice. Thank you for joining Spaces. And I look forward to this discussion. And perhaps we could start by outlining, if you could outline what AFD's platform is, what are the...
Speaker 1the main things you're aiming for, where does Germany need change, and just to educate people who have never heard of AFD or RFD, if it could be German. And a lot of people, especially in America, have never heard of AFD, so perhaps this would be very helpful.
Speaker 2Okay. Thank you very much, Elon, for having me and to give this opportunity to... to openly speak about different matters. Let me just, can you hear me?
Speaker 1I can, yes.
Speaker 2Perfect, perfect. To start with who we are, the AFD is the alternative for Germany. It is a relatively new party founded 11 years ago. during the course of the Euro problems. So unfortunately, I have to start when I shed some light on our party with the quite negative circumstances in Germany. Our country is a great country with highly motivated people.
Speaker 2But our country has been governed not in a proper way within the last 20, 25 years. We had the Angela Merkel administration for 16 years and then the so-called traffic light coalition that imploded last year. And now we're heading elections. In my point of view, Angela Merkel, the first green chancellor, she ruined basically our country.
Speaker 2She enforced, without asking the people, she enforced to open our borders for illegal immigration in 2015. She wrecked and destroyed our backbone in terms of obnoxious energy policy. For the foreign listeners here in this audience, Germany is the only industrial country that unplugged the nuclear power plant. So the aim of Angela Merkel was to enforce just solar and wind energy.
Speaker 2And you don't need to be very smart to encounter that you cannot run an industrial country with just wind and solar, because you don't have any energy and electricity when the sun doesn't shine and when the wind doesn't blow. And this is a major problem.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean, obviously, I'm a big fan of solar energy, but clearly, if a country is at a very high latitude, then the amount of solar power in the winter is going to be substantially reduced. And of course, there's a significant difference in the day-night cycle of energy usage. So a lot of power can be done with solar and with large-scale grid energy batteries, but it must be supplemented with other forms of power because there's not a lot of sunshine in the middle of winter in Germany.
Speaker 1So the solution obviously must be a multi-faceted solution. where there is certainly renewables, but also that there does need to be some amount of fossil fuel energy, and especially nuclear. I think nuclear is very much underrated. I think it was tragic for Germany to shut down the nuclear power plants. In fact, they're very well designed.
Speaker 1And I think that the right move is, in fact, to increase the amount of nuclear power substantially in Germany. This would be great.
Speaker 2um and and yeah yes absolutely um so that was the reason why i wanted to shed some light on the current situation so in order to form a opinion what our party stand for because this is exactly what you said um we stand for a energy energy supply diversification We cannot run an industrial country like Germany with a strong, still strong manufacturing base.
Speaker 2To tell you the truth, our manufacturing production, it peaked in 2018 and it plummeted since then due to high energy costs. And you cannot run a country like that. So therefore, we say, look, we need to be technology open. And we need to reinforce again nuclear power plants because nuclear energy supply is carbon free, right?
Speaker 2So therefore, we would also reduce our carbon footprint, which is obnoxiously very, very high. And this is the entire irony about it. So our governments... like the Angela Merkel government and the so-called ridiculous traffic light coalition, they enforced a green policy upon our country that doesn't work. And we would like to go back to technology openness here.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, my recommendation, and I've said this publicly before, is that Germany should not merely reopen the nuclear power plants, but substantially increase the power generation.
Speaker 1In the same space, meaning without increasing the size of the nuclear power plant in any meaningful way, without increasing the amount of land area that it uses, you can dramatically increase the power output of a nuclear power station because the actual core part of the power station is extremely tiny. People don't quite realize just how small the center core of a nuclear power plant is.
Speaker 1It's like amazingly tiny. And so you can actually... in the same land area, no increased land area, dramatically increase the amount of nuclear power that any given nuclear power station is producing. You do need a water source to run the steam turbines, but really far more power output is possible than people realize.
Speaker 1And I think that the sensible solution is renewables, but with a lot of nuclear and then, to supplement where... There has to be some amount of hydrocarbon power generation to supplement where... It just needs to be sensible.
Speaker 2Yeah, absolutely. But do you know what? Just let me do one more example. Because wind turbines, wind energy...
Speaker 2comparison to nuclear power supply is highly inefficient also in terms of land use so for instance i give one example just to shed some light on it if you were to replace one nuclear power plant let's say like one like m slant nuclear power plant here in germany with an annual electricity production of 10 billion kilowatt per hour
Speaker 2with modern wind turbines, with a production of just 8 million kilowatt per hour per year, you would need 1,250 wind turbines just to replace this one power plant. And with a rotor diameter of 17 meters and the minimum distance from large wind farms, you end up around with like 100 square kilometers. For example, this corresponds to half of the city, major city of Stuttgart, right?
Speaker 2So this entire thing, and just to stress the fact again, you don't need to be very smart just to do your calculation. But our energy policy... That's the crazy thing.
Speaker 1The crazy thing is like a bunch of these... these energy questions, you do not need to be like a world-leading physicist. It's very basic math, like less than high school level math. I'd say middle school math even. It's very straightforward, not complicated.
Speaker 2Yes, absolutely. And then during the crisis, like during the war... Sorry?
Speaker 1No, please go ahead.
Speaker 2Yeah. So during the war of Ukraine, our gas supply was just destroyed and that actually shed some light on our severe dependence on Russian gas. And do you know what the government decided in this crisis when the energy prices skyrocketed after we were cut off of cheap energy supply from Russia? they switched off the last nuclear power plant to even more create a um a shortage of energy yeah so either you must be very stupid or you just hate your own country i think it's mostly the very stupid category um at least i'd like to think so very soon i mean there's there's an old saying that like one should never ascribe to malice that which can easily be explained by incompetence um
Speaker 1Yes, you're perfectly right now. Yes, actually, when I saw that Germany was turning off the power plants after being cut off from gas supplies from Russia, I thought this is one of the craziest things I've ever seen. Just when Germany most needs electricity, Germany is shutting down one of the best sources of electricity, which is nuclear power.
Speaker 2Yes, and completely carbon free.
Speaker 1Yeah, crazy, crazy. It's crazy. So I guess to summarize the two main things that AFD is aiming for in terms of change is a sensible energy policy and sensible immigration policy.
Speaker 2Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2But actually even more. So we would like, so if I may continue a little bit, because now it's a complete new situation for me that I just can have a normal conversation. And I'm not interrupted or negatively framed how that has been in the media, the case in the last 10 years, which is completely ridiculous. So what we also stand for, since we are a conservative libertarian party, so at least we see ourselves like this, but we are extremely negatively framed as a so-called extremist party by the mainstream media.
Speaker 2So we just say, look, we need to reduce bureaucracy. We need to free our firms, our companies, the individuals of this obnoxious bureaucratic conditions here. Do you know how long it takes, how many days it takes to get a business permit in Germany?
Speaker 1Just guess. As it turns out, I do, because we both... Oh, yeah.
Speaker 3The big player.
Speaker 1We built a gigantic car factory, you know, just near Berlin. So we had many, many challenges. I mean, this is, to be clear, like we actually had a lot of support, a lot of local support, a lot of local support from the local government, from the national government. And despite all that support, just the sheer number of rules
Speaker 1that the people in the government are required to follow is completely crazy. And we had to, I think it was 25,000 pages was our permit. And it had to be all printed on paper.
Speaker 425,000?
Speaker 1Yes. I think maybe more than that in the end. 25,000. And then there had to be many, many copies made. So it literally was a truck of paper. Because we're like, surely we can make this electronic. Isn't that better for everyone?
Speaker 4No, not possible. You need to have that on paper.
Speaker 1And they say, no, it has to be paper. I'm like, this is crazy. This is only a few years ago. It's not the distant past. I mean, it's like we're well into the... We're a quarter of the way through the 21st century. It's like, guys, let's just... 25,000 actual printed pages. And then... I believe every page needed to be stamped with a physical stamp.
Speaker 1I mean, honestly, it's going to really tire somebody out to do so much stamping. Yeah. You know, they're going to get some sort of repetitive stress injury. Yeah, they're going to get a repetitive stress injury from having to stamp so many. Stress injuries. To send them to the hospital or something. I mean, that's too much.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 1So I'm not trying to blame the sort of individuals who are doing this time because they are just following the rules. So we have to change the rules and there needs to be, I think in my view for all countries, but especially countries that have enjoyed prosperity for a long time, it is extremely important to have what I call sort of garbage collection of rules, which is to re-examine the rules and regulations
Speaker 1and make sure that they are clearly a net good. And if there's any doubt about them being a net good, we should eliminate them. Because otherwise we get to this point where everything is illegal. And so it's just absolutely crazy.
Speaker 2Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's not only about bureaucracy. It's also about taxes. Germany has the highest taxes of all OECD countries. So the normal German employee, he works more than half of a year for the state. You have to imagine that.
Speaker 5Right.
Speaker 2Like with taxes plus social security. So more than half of the year you work for this dysfunctioning state. Because like the state does not provide the vital provisions for the people here. So he doesn't provide for security. So we have like skyrocketing criminal rights here. He doesn't care about education. So we have this same insane, woke-ish, left-ish socialist agenda in our educational system.
Speaker 2So the young people, they don't learn anything in school, in university. etc. So they just learn about gender studies. Are you serious? Yeah. No, really.
Speaker 1I started the impression that Germany had a pretty good education system that was quite rigorous with the gymnasium and all that sort of stuff. At least it used to at one point. But it sounds like this has, I don't know, the woke mind virus has infected Germany quite badly.
Speaker 2yeah yeah um so you have the the international standard of pisa testing right so the pisa survey right so germany like a couple of years ago was okay scored okay this score okay but now so we so we just plummeted because because the survey showed that young people are not able to properly do math or speak or write german and in some like in some states here in germany you have to imagine they just abolished the writing grades
Speaker 2in terms to get the language grade, right? So you don't need to write German properly anymore because our entire educational system has been deteriorating. And that is also the reason, for instance, why young people, they vote for us now. because they wanna have a proper education and they wanna have back a proper educational system that provides the young people with capabilities.
Speaker 2And that is also the reason why I, so my personal opinion is that we have to go back to a merit-based system, right? So we need to go back to a merit-based incentive system. and go away from all these socialist gender things being in our educational system. The families and the parents, they have the responsibility of their children and the schools and the university, they have the responsibility to give good education and not all this vogue socialist nonsensical gender stuff.
Speaker 1Sure. No, absolutely. I mean, the whole point of going to school is to learn useful skills that help you in life, help you be productive and understand the world. And otherwise, it's not a school. It's just a propaganda institution.
Speaker 4True.
Speaker 1Yeah. So, OK, well, I mean, that makes makes a lot of sense. So let's see. Yeah.
Speaker 2So maybe I can just go on, because I was just giving an example of the educational system where the state fails. Because our state, the government, collected in the last year a record high of income tax. So they collected around above $1 trillion, right?
Speaker 2um of euros so it is a record high tax but the state they cannot they cannot handle taxpayers money so what do they do so they just uh um throw throw the money out of the window for uh for uh for immigration in our social system for instance so since 2015 just to give you some numbers and also the audience to have to have an idea what's going on here in Germany.
Speaker 2So we had an influx of almost 7 million people, 7 million people, but these are the officially counted.
Speaker 1So- 7 million people, wow, okay.
Speaker 27 million people of influx since 2015 officially counted. And then because the people, they just, just another funny numbers. Our state allows people to throw away their passports before they cross our borders that are not protected and controlled. So 57%, almost 60% of the people coming into our country through an open border, they throw away their papers.
Speaker 2Why do they do that? Because once entered our country, our funny country, with this funny immigration policy, they cannot be deported anymore. So that's the reason why. So our state, our government, like the Angela Merkel government and the last one, they proclaimed a policy that everyone can choose to cross our border to immigrate into our social security system and cannot be deported afterwards because they threw away their passports.
Speaker 2I mean, like, how insane is that?
Speaker 1Well, it is very insane, but that's exactly what's happened in the U.S. So, I mean, clearly there's, you know, there's a sort of, I don't know, sort of a far-left agenda that's being pushed throughout Western civilization, any place they can go, because the exact same thing was done in the U.S., where... And now they're sort of calling people illegal immigrants.
Speaker 1They call them undocumented. And the reason they're undocumented is because they threw away their passport, just like you're talking about. In fact, on the Mexican side of the border in the US, there's a giant pile of discarded passports and driver's licenses, like a huge pile. Because it's actually worse to come in with a passport than to come in with nothing.
Speaker 1And then just like in Germany, the the the democrat government uh then gives um massive amounts of uh money uh and support to what they call undocumented but but then but if they're undocumented we actually have no idea if they are a murderer rapist we have no idea because they they have no documents so we can't actually tell and so as a result uh there's been there's been a massive influx of of criminals into the us uh because and frankly
Speaker 1I mean, I'm wondering what's taking criminals so long to come here. I mean, America is a target rich environment. In America, it's so easy to steal things in these wealthy neighborhoods. It's like the only thing that is going to slow down how much you can steal is if your back hurts from carrying out all the goods. Because you're not a robber, you're just a moving company.
Speaker 1So it seems like all the world's criminals just come to America on that basis because it's much easier to be a career criminal in America than it is in other countries where there's not that much to steal. So we've seen a massive increase in crime in the US.
Speaker 2Yeah. May I ask a question on that? So I read that, for instance, in California, by the way, I'm very sorry what's happening there. It's terrible. It's really terrible. And yeah, it's terrible. But in the case of California, that they just lifted the prosecution of theft because you have so many cases of theft. Is it true?
Speaker 1Yes. The de facto situation in California is that theft is almost never prosecuted. It's maybe 1% of the time is theft prosecuted. And even when it is prosecuted, the criminals are let out on bail immediately. So basically theft is legal in California. It's crazy. It's crazy.
Speaker 1Now, there was recently a referendum in California to make stealing illegal again. And actually, that was very popular, and it passed. Because it was actually literally legal to steal anything under $1,000, which means people could just walk into a store at $1,000 at a time and take out anything they want. And if the storekeeper stopped them, the storekeeper would be arrested.
Speaker 1So this is literally like the Joker and Batman. It's like the criminals are in charge and the honest citizens are arrested. It's just completely insane. Now, like I said, the people in California did vote overwhelmingly to make theft illegal again. But astonishingly, the governor of California, Governor Newsom, he was against the making theft illegal.
Speaker 1which is doesn't make any sense yeah well now but what they're going to do is even though it is technically illegal again um they the the sort of far left will refuse to enforce it so because because you really need two things uh for something to work for for laws to work you need you need both the law and you need enforcement of the law and if you don't have if you have if you so i mean this is something that george soros really figured out i mean he's sort of
Speaker 1brilliant guy, but honestly very, you know, anti-human in my opinion, is that you don't actually need to change the law. We just need to stop enforcement of the law. And that does the trick. But I think there is somewhat of a reawakening in the U.S., and I think even in California, people are tired of this, and they want change.
Speaker 1And I think that's really, if you say, like, people are wondering, like, why did the Why did Donald Trump win? And it wasn't just a small victory. In the U.S. elections this year, you know, President Trump won the Electoral College. He also won the popular vote, majority of the people. And the House is Republican and the Senate is Republican.
Speaker 1What this says is the American people are demanding change. That would be very clear. And my recommendation? for the people in Germany is to do the same. If you are unhappy with the situation, you must vote for change. And that is why I'm really strongly recommending that people vote for AFD. That's my strong recommendation.
Speaker 1And I think this is simply the sensible move. And I think Alice Beadle is a very reasonable person and hopefully people can tell just from this conversation. like nothing outrageous is being proposed, just common sense. So, in fact, as I've said publicly, I think only AFD can save Germany. And I just want to be very clear about that.
Speaker 1Only AFD can save Germany. End of story. And people really need to get behind the AFD, and otherwise things are going to get very much worse in Germany.
Speaker 2Yes, because you rightly said,
Speaker 2um there is a difference of making a law and then enforcing it so now we have the situation in germany where you have on the one hand you have the afd and on the other hand what's so-called uni parties right the uni party consisting of all the others because because they stick together and no matter what they say they're not able to implement to enforce the promises they're doing
Speaker 2In every election, especially the Angela Merkel party. Do you know that the Chancellor Kennedy, so my running mate of the Christ Democratic Party, that it's wrongly labeled, for instance, by The Economist as a center-right party. So in my opinion, it's a leftist green party. But anyway, Angela Merkel was the first green chancellor we had here.
Speaker 2So what he did is that he... by the way, just talking about interference. So I just look it up here. He called your interests, so your interests in German politics, pushy and presumptuous.
Speaker 5Yeah. What did you say about George Soros?
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly. And Bill Gates. So that was not a problem. When Bill Gates actually tried to sell his mRNA vaccination and not mentioning all the huge side effects on people's health. And no one takes responsibility about that. And the entire bluff and scam of wearing a mask, right? So it's unbelievable. And also that candidate of the Chris Democrats like Friedrich Merz, he warned the world about the consequences
Speaker 2of voting for Donald Trump in October last year. So far for foreign interferences, right? So it's unbelievable. It's really unbelievable how Donald Trump was treated by German media and German politicians during his election campaign. It was unbelievable. And I mentioned that before in a Bloomberg interview. It created, for me...
Speaker 2it created physical pain to see that, how he was disparaged, like, and his entire family. So, yeah, so I feel very sorry for these people, just like, yeah, saying negative things. And now, while we talk, 150 bureaucrats of the European Union are watching us, our conversation. to enforce this ridiculous Digital Services Act that is nothing else than a censorship on free speech.
Speaker 2Free speech, right? And you said it, free speech is a precondition of democracy. If you are not able to form a proper opinion and exchange opinions and ideas and a democracy... should be a competition of the best ideas, right? Absolutely.
Speaker 1Yes, exactly. Without freedom of speech, people are obviously not able to say what they want to say, and then they cannot make an informed vote. So if people are simply fed propaganda and have no access to what's really going on, then they can't make an informed vote, and then you don't have a real democracy. So that's why I say, you know,
Speaker 1free speech is the bedrock of democracy. There must be free speech in order for people to make an informed vote. So that's essential. And it's actually quite easy to tell who the bad guys are. It's like, who wants to shut down freedom of speech? They are the bad guys. It's very clear.
Speaker 2Yes. And do you know what Adolf Hitler did? The first thing... He switched off free speech.
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 2So he controlled the media. And without that, he would have never been successful.
Speaker 1Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2Never been successful.
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 4But this is what he did.
Speaker 1Yeah, no, exactly. That was one of the first things he did was to control the media and imposed extreme censorship. And really what he was trying to do was shut down any pro-Semitic media. Anything pro-Semitic or any defense of the Jewish people was shut down. For those who want censorship, I think they should be careful what they ask for, because once you institute censorship, it's only a matter of time before that censorship is turned on you.
Speaker 1eventually they will censor you and that's the that's the danger um because people love to censor uh things they don't agree with but they don't realize that one day that censorship is going to be turned on them so absolutely um so i mean i mean you mentioned of course uh uh you know hitler and whatnot uh now this a lot of the media uh wants to portray afd as far right
Speaker 1as somehow associated with Nazism or something like that. Perhaps you could address that concern, because people, when they hear right-wing in Germany, they naturally have a bit of a negative reaction.
Speaker 2Yes, thank you for the question. First of all, I would like to, since I'm an economist, I would like to shed some light on the idea, when we talk about Hitler, on the idea of the National Socialists. Back then, during the Third Reich, the National Socialists, as the word says, they were socialists. Yeah, very much so.
Speaker 1They nationalized industries like crazy.
Speaker 2Yes, absolutely. He was a communist and he considered himself as a socialist so what they did they um they um they um yeah they as a state funded then the private companies and then they asked for um for taxes huge taxes and then also wait a second to ask the word now
Speaker 2Yeah, nationalize the entire industry. Yeah, you said that before. And the biggest success, the biggest success after that terrible era in our history was to label Adolf Hitler as right and conservative. He was exactly the opposite. He wasn't a conservative. He wasn't a libertarian. He was a communist. socialist guy. So, full stop.
Speaker 2No more comment on that. And we are exactly the opposite. We are a libertarian, conservative party. And see, look at this during, like now, like during the discussion of this terrible Hamas attack on Israel. So, only the leftist Palestinians They criticize the policies here. So you have a deeply vested anti-Semitism within the leftist movement.
Speaker 2And it was always that case. Why? And Adolf Hitler, he also played with that. He played with the envy of people. Jewish people have been highly educated, very cultivated, and they were successful. There were wealthy people back in Germany then. And then he enforced the envy of the population against these people. And it was a socialist measure taken against them.
Speaker 2Look at Stalin. Look at the Soviet Union under Stalin, the very same thing. So he was nothing else than an anti-Semitic socialist. And we are exactly the opposite. We are a libertarian conservative party. We are wrongly framed the entire time. And we would like to free the people of the state. I want to have independently thinking people, self-confident people.
Speaker 2I would like to have a state that is minimized, minimized to his functions and letting the people having their freedom of speech Freedom of wealth also, like generating wealth with these obnoxiously high taxes, the state erodes the backbone of wealth, right? So the people are not able to accumulate wealth that make them independent from the state.
Speaker 2So I would like to have independently thinking, well-educated people. have the freedom to form their own opinion i want to have strong leaders in germany i don't want to have stupid weak leaders as we had in the last couple of years because these people cannot think straightly and they're a big danger look at the war in ukraine now they're a big danger of to our national security and to uh actually to the entire european security this is also my hope
Speaker 2in Donald Trump and in you, in your administration, that you end that terrible war, this worthless, worthless dying of young people every day, like as fast as you can, because the Europeans, they cannot. They actually given up on everything, like on a good military, on a good negotiation power. They completely depend on the US in the sense of,
Speaker 2Oh, the USA need to do the entire job. We don't need to do anything. We just escalate the entire conflict against Russia. It's very dangerous what's going on here. And only you can basically stop it.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean, I think President Trump is going to solve that conflict, I think, very quickly. As you point out, It's now been in somewhat of a stalemate for a few years. And all that's happened over the past few years is hundreds of thousands of people dying, but for no gains. And the longer this conflict goes on, the more Ukraine weakens relative to Russia.
Speaker 1I mean, Ukraine is a much smaller country. It simply cannot afford the losses relative to Russia. Russia has, it's just, you know, it's... The longer this drags on, the worse it is for Ukraine. And then you've got all these poor men dying for nothing. Why? So I hope this terrible conflict can be resolved quickly. And I think it will be under President Trump.
Speaker 2Yeah, it will be great, actually. Because this is our note, really. The people here, like many people, or anxious, and they're anxious for a very good reason, I think, because this conflict has a potential to escalate big time towards a nuclear exchange. And here, the European governments, they have no measure, they have no strategy, they have no red line, no storyline of their foreign and security policy towards Russia, towards Ukraine.
Speaker 2They have no strategy. end that and they don't have the military power right so they underspend the budget to nato right uh for actually for decades like for for a very long time like the average for instance of germany because um the share of gdp is supposed to be two percent so germany on average i think was just like uh slightly above one percent so germany didn't contribute but germany is also
Speaker 2not prudent of the defendants of our own country. So this is the second thing. So we are completely dependent on the US. But I think, and I've listened to this very interesting speech of J.D. Vance. He said he doesn't want to have client states, right? Yeah. So he wants to have... independent states who who uh that also form their own independent opinion on things right yes so you you you for instance in your companies you don't want to be surrounded by yes people and by mediocre people right so me neither right now yeah so i try to uh also i try to
Speaker 2to have the best people in my team. And these best people, they have the task to criticize me every day. And I don't want to have yes-sayers, right? Because you cannot learn, so you have no way to...
Speaker 5Sorry, I just said yes.
Speaker 4Yes.
Speaker 1yes yes yes yes people no but it's so important yeah yes so yeah no absolutely i mean for say my companies like spacex and tesla if you know if um if if if we we are constantly looking for critical feedback because if we make a mistake uh then the rockets blow up and the cars don't work so you know, physics is very unforgiving.
Speaker 1You know, there's, you know, I say like really physics is the law and everything else is a recommendation because I've seen people break every kind of law, but I haven't seen them break physics. And so if you don't get the design of the rocket and the operation of the rocket exactly right, and if even one thing is wrong, the rocket explodes.
Speaker 1So, you know, I'm a strong believer in seeking critical feedback. And in fact, I think critical feedback should be viewed as a gift.
Speaker 2yes yes yes yes yes yes um so no no no but uh but uh um just uh just um um just to uh continue on that topic so um if you don't have that feedback loop so um your your rocket may explode right but here in this critical phase of this terrible war in in the ukraine many people may die due to these stupid policies. Many people have died.
Speaker 1Yeah, indeed. Yeah. So, let's touch on some maybe potential, what people may view as hot-button issues. What are your views on Israel?
Speaker 2Oh, very complicated.
Speaker 1Okay, well, we have time.
Speaker 2No, really. The more I read...
Speaker 2about the Middle East and the situation in Israel, the more complicated it gets. And to be honest, I wanted to ask you about a potential solution, because to be honest, like in my humble opinion, I don't see a solution. So maybe Israel have to find some alliances with the Sunni states, maybe if possible. um and um yeah to be honest from my point of view like from my perspective it's a very complicated situation and i don't you know i'm not this person i'm not a politician um if you ask a question that i do this blah blah blah i really say what i think to to do honest uh politics and to be honest i don't know
Speaker 2to be very frank, I don't know how to solve the conflict at this point in time. And I hope maybe you have an answer on that. Sorry for being dissatisfactory, but it's so complicated. And I want to give prudent answer. And in case of Israel, I don't know how to resolve this conflict, to be honest.
Speaker 1Well, I guess maybe another way to say it is, do you unequivocally support the existence of the state of Israel?
Speaker 2Yes, of course.
Speaker 1Okay, that's what people want to know. I'm asking questions that maybe seem very obvious, but, you know.
Speaker 2Oh, yes. Now I see why this question. No, absolutely. So we need to protect the existence of Israel. And we need to protect not only the existence of the state of Israel. I also think that Benjamin Netanyahu have made many mistakes in the past, to be honest. But we also need to take our responsibility as a German nation state to protect Jewish life, Jewish people in our country who are exposed right now to...
Speaker 2to Muslim crime, right? So they are not safe here anymore. So you, I don't know if you saw some videos here of the streets of Berlin. I'm right now in my office in Berlin, but like with all these demonstrations of the Palestinians here, well, a Jew could not walk through the street anymore, right? And we have a huge potential of antisemitic crime against the Jewish people.
Speaker 2And to be very frank, to be very frank here, the AFD is the only protector. And I'm saying that, like, very frankly. Alternative für Deutschland, the AFD is the only, can only be the only protector of the Jewish people within here in Germany, because the Uniparty, all other parties, they did exactly the opposite. They let like millions of people in, they let them do crimes on our streets, like the crime rate are skyrocketing.
Speaker 2And so the Jewish people, they leave our country. When I talk to my Jewish friends who live in Germany and in Switzerland and in France and in Austria, they were very afraid after the Hamas attack on the 7th of October because they were afraid that they would likely to be attacked. by um by palestinians by hamas supporters or by the antifa or by the leftist terrorists i don't know but they were very afraid very sensitive from going on the streets and we we step up for this people even though the opposite in the mainstream media the opposite is claimed
Speaker 2But this is not true. It's just a lie about our party.
Speaker 1Yes, I think that's what I wanted to just make it clear, that AFD is being massively misrepresented, especially in the Western media. Obviously, I very much support the state of Israel, but I also believe that we want to be... mindful and have empathy for civilians who are dying as well. When I've had conversations with Prime Minister Netanyahu, and I think we largely agreed, I mean, there's three steps, which is there's no choice but to eliminate those who wish to eliminate the state of Israel.
Speaker 1you know, Hamas, essentially. And then the second step is to fix the education so that Palestinians are not trained from when they are children to hate and want the death of Israel. So you've got to fix the education system. And then the third thing, which is also very important, is to make the Palestinian areas prosperous.
Speaker 1This third step is very important. and and this this way this is maybe the hardest step uh which is uh but but you have to have that third step you have to bring prosperity uh you have to help rebuild and you have to bring prosperity and i've had this conversation with with many people um in israel i said that third step is is essential um and and that they've asked me well when has this worked and i'm like well i'll give you a very big example um you know after world war one
Speaker 1the Treaty of Versailles was extremely unfair to Germany. And it created a massive amount of resentment. And the Treaty of Versailles laid the foundation with its extreme reparations for, laid the foundation for World War II. Without the Treaty of Versailles, Hitler would not have succeeded. Yes, true. Yes. And so, and then, but if you look at, so then the lesson was learned.
Speaker 1So then after World War II,
Speaker 1when Germany and Japan were defeated, the US actually helped rebuild Japan and Germany, providing financial support to rebuild Japan and Germany. And now Japan and Germany are allies. And this is a very important and fundamental lesson of history.
Speaker 2Yes, you're absolutely right. When after the Hamas attack, I just opened Google Maps to have a look, okay, what is the geographic situation there? And when you see the Gaza stripe, right? It's a Gaza stripe which is just locked, locked in, with no resources and not even water supplies. So there can be cut off a water supply and...
Speaker 2and other supplies just like instantaneously. And this construction also like just having a look like from a geographic perspective, you don't need to be very smart that this is not going to work out. And to make this area wealthy with specific measure being taken,
Speaker 2it's a very vital first step.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think it's essential. It requires overriding the natural human instinct for reciprocity, which is basically an eye for an eye. But the problem with that, an eye for an eye, is that if you keep doing that, an eye for an eye, as the saying goes, an eye for an eye makes everyone blind. That's why I think there's great wisdom to forgiveness.
Speaker 1You need both strength. and forgiveness, but this is the only way to stop the endless cycle of violence.
Speaker 2It's a very nice sentence, like the eye for an eye makes everyone blind.
Speaker 1Yeah, exactly. So hopefully that can be the future. That's the best future I can think of. I think there's no some other future that's that works.
Speaker 2So how about, may I ask you another question? Because we just jumped topics. What is your point of view? So we stopped that your administration will end the war in Ukraine very swiftly. But what is your perspective on the instruments and measures that could be taken? So would you like to talk about it? Can you talk about it a little bit?
Speaker 2So what we could expect?
Speaker 1Well, to be clear, I mean, this is up to President Trump. You know, he is the commander in chief. And so it's really, you know, you know after him so um i don't want i don't want to speak for him so but but i but i you know i just i do think that there's there there is a path here to a resolution and um but it does require strong leadership uh in the united states uh in order to to get this done um yeah so yeah um but uh i'm confident that it can be done
Speaker 1And I do think it's possible to have peace in the Middle East as well. These are possible. And I think that would be a great future for the world. So, yeah.
Speaker 2No, great. So it's absolutely fair. So very, very fine with me.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1Well, let's see, are there any other topics we should discuss? Or if you have any questions for me or anything you think people might want to know about?
Speaker 2Yes, absolutely. Because I want to ask, and many people are interested in that. So why do you believe that flying to Mars and populating Mars is your top priority topic, SpaceX? And when do you think, when will you be ready to have a human expedition to Mars? If you allow, if I may ask this question, because everyone is interested.
Speaker 2So these are great projects, right?
Speaker 1Yeah. Well, I mean, I think at a very high level, I think sort of like what set of actions are going to... lead to the long-term uh prosperity of civilization um you know the the sort of a growth in the scale and scope of consciousness um you know the to the best of our knowledge uh there we are the only place with with life or certainly the only place with life that that is intelligent in some form a lot of people think oh there's there must be aliens but i've not seen any evidence of aliens um and uh if
Speaker 1The archaeological records are correct. Earth is 4.5 billion years old, but civilization, as measured from the first writing, is only about 5,000 years old, which is about one millionth of Earth's existence. So all of human civilization is a tiny flash in the pan so far. And so we have to say, well, what steps can we take to ensure the long-term survival of life as we know it, of consciousness?
Speaker 1And if we are a multi-planet species, the probable lifespan of consciousness is dramatically greater than if we are a single-planet species. This is not to say that I think that Earth is about to die or anything like that, but there is some risk. If there is a global thermonuclear war or some extreme natural event, like a giant meteor that hits the Earth that causes a mass extinction event, if we look at the fossil record,
Speaker 1there are at least five extreme mass extinction events, basically extinction events that would have destroyed all of humanity completely. There's five of them at least. And so I think we should take this opportunity today because for the first time in the four and a half billion year history of Earth, it is possible to extend life and to extend consciousness
Speaker 1beyond Earth. And that window of opportunity may be open for a short time or it may be open for a long time. But just in case it is open for a short time, we must take advantage of this window and as quickly as possible become a multi-planet species and ensure the long term survival of civilization.
Speaker 2So what is your timeframe for a for the first human expedition?
Speaker 1Well, yes, to be clear, what matters is not so much the sort of flags and footprints, but the establishment of a self-sustaining city on Mars where the critical threshold is where the city can grow independent of Earth, meaning if the resupply shifts from Earth stop coming for any reason, that the Mars colony does not die out.
Speaker 1If we are able to reach that point, then we have passed one of the very important and fundamental Fermi-grade filters. You know, there's this idea of like, well, why don't we see evidence of intelligence life? Well, there's this idea that there are these various great filters that these, civilizations never pass. And one of those great filters is never going beyond your home planet.
Speaker 1So if we can pass the Fermi Great Filter of being a single planet species, and to be clear, if we are a single planet species, it is just a matter of time before we are annihilated. One can argue about how long it will take, but eventually there will be something that happens that annihilates civilization. It might be very far in the future, but we simply know from the fossil record, as I mentioned, that there have been at least five mass natural extinction events.
Speaker 1And I think there's added risk for humans that we could destroy ourselves because the dinosaurs did not have thermonuclear weapons. So they also didn't have spaceships. So we've got the risk of... of thermonuclear war that could destroy everyone, but we also have spaceships that can make life multi-planetary. To answer your question more directly, I think we can send uncrewed starships to Mars in approximately two years.
Speaker 1Earth and Mars align for planetary transfer roughly every two years, every 26 months.
Speaker 2Two years.
Speaker 1Yes. So the Earth obviously takes a year to go around the Sun. Mars takes approximately two years. And obviously one cannot go to Mars when it is on the other side of the Sun from Earth. So we have to wait for when Mars is in roughly the same quadrant of the solar system as Earth. And that occurs for about six months every two years.
Speaker 1And the optimal transfer window is typically just a few months. So for a few months, every two years, or every 26 months, you can transfer to Mars. So there's currently a Mars transfer window, which means that the next one is in two years from now. And then there'll be another one two years after that. So for the one in two years, I think we can send uncrewed Starships to land on Mars to test
Speaker 1we have the landing systems are working properly um we want to make sure that we don't um you know add add more craters to mars um yeah yeah the crater count increment must be zero um and if so once we prove that it is safe to land then um If all the ships we send in about two years land safely, and we think we understand the issues, then in principle, in about four years, you could send the first people.
Speaker 1And then the number of ships can expand exponentially from that point. I mean, as a rough order of magnitude, my guess is that we need to transport about a million tons of cargo to Mars to make it self-sustaining. You know, when things are very uncertain, I think if you can even guess to within one order of magnitude, you're doing quite well.
Speaker 1So I suspect probably 100,000 tons is maybe not enough. And hopefully we don't need 10 million tons. So therefore, my guess is hopefully a million tons is enough to make Mars self-sustaining. So maybe it's a million tons of cargo to the surface of Mars and about a million people or more.
Speaker 1That's really what matters. The critical threshold from the standpoint of a fundamental branching of the future of civilization is that point of reaching on Mars where Mars can grow by itself even if resupply ships from Earth stop coming. At that point, the future of civilization branches and to a good branch. And the probable lifespan of civilization is dramatically greater.
Speaker 1And my guess is that there will be cases where the future Martians actually come and help and rescue Earth when there is an emergency, just as America has helped to rescue the rest of the world in World War I and II and the Cold War. And where would the world be if not for America helping out in those three circumstances?
Speaker 1So I think that there's a good chance Mars helps save Earth at some point in the future, maybe many times. And then once we have a civilization on Mars, we can expand to the rest of the solar system, to the larger asteroids like Ceres, maybe to the moons of Jupiter and Saturn and beyond, at least through the rest of the solar system.
Speaker 1know and then we go from being hopefully a multi-planet civilization to at some point a multi-stellar civilization and we're out there among the stars um and uh and then we can try to find out what is the nature of the universe uh you know perhaps perhaps when we go to and visit these far away star systems we will discover the remains of long dead alien civilizations
Speaker 1I think that would be incredibly interesting. But for sure, it will greatly improve our understanding of the nature of the universe dramatically. Absolutely. Yes. And the time scales are just remarkable to think about. I mean, physics suggests that the universe is about 13.8 billion years old. And I mean, even the elements in our body that aren't hydrogen, like any heavier elements had to be formed
Speaker 1in the center of a star. And so a large part of our body was actually formed in the center of a star and that star exploded. And then the elements recondensed ultimately billions of years later to form Earth and humans. So when you think about these timescales, they were really remarkable to think about. Yeah. but a civilization that lasted a million years so our civilization you know like so i think a good metric for saying what when does a civilization start i think is maybe writing you know that's if you're going to pick anything i'd pick that that's only 5 000 years ago so um so for civilizations like let's say last an incremental million years that that's an enormous amount of time
Speaker 1as compared to the length of human civilization, but it's very small compared to the age of the universe. You'd have to go three digits past the decimal point of 13.8 million years just to increment one million years. So I think we may find when we go out there and explore these star systems that there were alien civilizations, maybe they lasted for millions of years, much longer than we've lasted.
Speaker 1And any civilization that can last a million years is going to be in the Hall of Fame. This is an incredibly long time. So anyway, and I think for humanity, we don't want to be one of those lame one-planet civilizations. Any self-respecting civilization should have at least two planets. So that's what we should aim for.
Speaker 3Wow.
Speaker 2If you, so you just said that the human body comprises of elements of an exploded and then reordered elements, right? So do you think that this coincidentally happened or do you believe in God? I'm just curious. Because many people say, okay, this cannot have been a coincidence. That cannot, right? So it just could have been God.
Speaker 2So do you believe in God?
Speaker 1Well, I'm open to believing in things proportionate to the information that I receive. So, I mean, I guess I have sort of a physics view of... reality uh which is you know uh you know i guess i'm trying to i try i'm trying to understand the universe as much as possible to understand what's going on i i'm certainly open to the idea of god and if you say like well where did the universe come from uh how is it created um what i suppose there would be some entity that that you could call god i i i would i don't know uh
Speaker 1But that's a separate question from, say, is there some entity that is observing our daily actions and rendering a moral verdict on what we do from day to day? That doesn't appear to be the case, because at least there's some very evil things that happen in the world. And if there's someone observing us on a moral basis continually, then it does seem odd that some very evil things are allowed to occur.
Speaker 1But maybe that is the case. I don't know. I try to form my opinions based on what I learn. And as I learn more, I aspire to change my views to match what I learn.
Speaker 2Yeah, same here. To be honest, I'm still on a search. I don't know what to believe. So it's called maybe an agnostic. And yeah, but it's very interesting to see how the world and also the universe evolved. And yeah, it was incredibly interesting to listen to your visions. And yeah, it's quite a vision for every one of us.
Speaker 1Yeah, I would say that what I have is a philosophy of curiosity. So I'm curious about the nature of the universe. And I would say I subscribe to the Douglas Adams School of Philosophy that was described in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
Speaker 1And in that book, the Earth was sort of a giant computer that was trying to answer the question, what is the meaning of life? And then it comes back with 42. And they're like, what does 42 mean? And it's, well, it's actually, the answer is the easy part and the question is the hard part. So, you know, that was actually quite an illuminating thing for me because I had sort of an existential crisis when I was, I don't know, 12 or 13 about the meaning of life.
Speaker 1And, you know, I read many of the religious texts and the books on philosophy. You know, it's like reading Chopin, Arnisha and whatnot, which is a bit depressing if you're to read as a child. But, you know, ultimately... Why? They're a bit negative. At times, you know. It makes more sense reading it as an adult. But then I read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which is really a book on philosophy in the form of humor.
Speaker 1And I think it kind of really... That, I thought, was very insightful. That... that we should basically try to understand the nature of the universe and in fact understand even what questions to ask about the answer that is the universe. And so that led me to conclude that we should aspire to expand the scope and scale of consciousness so that we're better able to know what questions to ask about the answer that is the universe.
Speaker 1So we should just seem to take the set of actions that lead to a greater understanding of the universe.
Speaker 2Wonderful. Actually, these are perfect last words, to be honest, for a conversation. Because I don't know right now what to continue. No, really, because these words are so beautiful, so I would just screw it up. And it was wonderful. It was wonderful talking to you and listening to your views of mankind and also to have an idea of your vision.
Speaker 2It's very visionary. And yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 1Well, it's been a pleasure speaking. And I hope people listen to this conversation and find it helpful. All right. Thanks, everyone. Thank you.
Speaker 5Thank you.
Speaker 4Bye. Thanks.